Ep. 4 - Talkin' What Is Faith

The Small Group dives into a topic that can be easily overlooked, but vitally important, that of "faith". Exploring scripture (Hebrews primarily, but many others as well), Benjamin, Lacey, Sabrina, and Taylor discuss some of the more fundamental aspects of faith, setting the stage for an even deeper dive in future episodes. Sabrina shares a heartfelt personal impact in her experience of faith. Taylor (humbly) displays his talent for reciting scripture by memory, and Benjamin gladly calls him out on it. Benjamin also tries out an experiment by polling the group on their choice of words to describe faith, while also announcing a new feature to their website (SmallGroupPodcast.wordpress.com) for listeners to access notes from the show so that you can participate too and send in your selections too. Each of the hosts reveal what their most impactful and favorite hymns are, describing their effects on them personally. The Group announces how far and fast the show has spread, and are blown away by many of the cities and states it has been able to reach in a short period of time.

Thank you for joining in Small Group, and please feel free to participate with us by sending your thoughts, questions, or ideas by commenting, messaging, or by email (goat.bear.lobster@gmail.com). You can also reach out, and find out more about us, at our website: SmallGroupPodcast.wordpress.com. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:40

We didn't stop until someone falls out of the window. This is Small Group Podcast. I'm Benjamin Maxwell.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

I'm Lacey. I'm Sabrina.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

And I'm Taylor Bain. It's good to be here again. We got another good episode lined up here.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

And like we said last episode, one of the things we're going to struggle with, all these topics, it's so hard to fit into one episode. This is going to be one that we'll probably end up breaking into maybe a couple, maybe at least two episodes. So I don't know if they'll be simultaneous but or back to back. But this is probably going to be one of those that we uh we break up into multiple parts. But anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Alright, well, let's start with our icebreaker question. What is your favorite hymn?

SPEAKER_04 1:33

I love this question.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

I think for me it has to be old rugged cross. My great-grandfather and my grandfather love that one.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

And our one at church, we hit our worship leader, Rex Harrison, at last Sunday queued up Old Rugged Cross, and it got me.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

I just love that hymn. It makes me think of my grandfather Sid. It makes me think of my just my family in a deep way. So that one for me, Old Rugged Cross, on a hill far away, you know, it it gets me every time. So I love that one. What about y'all?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

That's a beautiful one. I mentioned this song in our last episode as the deer. I don't know who their original singer is, but Robbie, our friend, he has been playing it a lot during Youth Night. And I love that song. I think that there is a desperation for God that's described in the lyrics. And I think in this la like in the last year, I've really felt that in my own walk with God. It's never been this strong. I've never felt as called to scripture and prayer as I have, um, like I have this last year. And so that song just expresses a desperation to be close to God.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

So in case you can't hear it is sticker time. Thank you, Daddy. For our studio audience.

SPEAKER_05 3:14

Sticker time.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

We're just gonna keep going. Just yeah. This is life, guys.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

This is a small group.

SPEAKER_05 3:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

Gabriella Grace in the background. I heard up most of your answer, I think. Yeah. That's a I love that one too, Sabrina. And that's a reference to a psalm, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yeah, it is. What is this? Psalm which one?

SPEAKER_03 3:37

Psalm, I believe it's Psalm 42.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

We just looked it up. That's right. Psalm 42.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Sound like you're spoon baiting. Do you know the answer? I I wouldn't bet the house on it. Okay. But I'm if I uh maybe my car.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Sounded like you were leading the witness there. Leading the witness.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

I think it literally like it in the psalm it says, as the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, my God. My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When can I go and meet with God? Uh yeah, you're right. There is a reference there.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

That's awesome. Lacey didn't finish the question. It's also what's your favorite hymn, and you have to sing it. She called my bluff. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

I said pantith, and I don't know if that's actually the we're KGV, we're in the King James tonight.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

The language of Jesus. What about what about you, Ben?

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Yeah, so I I think this gives me an idea. We need to do an episode about this because I could go all day about hymns. But like what you were talking about, one that makes you feel emotional. It is well with my soul, is one I struggle with too. Oh, yeah. And I've got all kinds of them that remind me of family, like you're talking about. And uh one one thing about hymns too is that I love growing up in church, hearing, you know, grandparents, family, people that have really influenced me in my life, growing up hearing those voices, even and that was up in North Alabama where I grew up. Now here in the panhandle of Florida, uh, you know, in a new congregation, new place, singing those songs when they come back around. I still hear those voices. They follow you, and it's a beautiful thing. But to answer the question, I'll get better at answering questions, by the way. When my love for Christ goes week is the one, the number one for me. And that's might might not be as well known as like the old rugged cross, dear pens for the water or streams of water. But when my love for Christ goes week, we talked about uh uh briefly last episode, I believe, where my default is the first the greatest command, love God, second, love your neighbor. That song speaks directly to it. It's and it's typically back home growing up, we uh considered it quote unquote communion song to prepare your mind. And I still to that to this day, that's one song that even when we partake communion, I will I focus on. It really helps me. But in brief, if you don't know it, it's the the first verse. I won't do the whole thing, but just briefly it you know it speaks to you know when my love for Christ grows weak, when for deeper faith I seek, hill of Calvary I go, to thy sins of bit of bitter woe. I think I'm missing something there. But anyway, that's the first greatest command, love God, and it and it the imagery it paints of see his anguish, see his face, it's just so beautiful to me. It connects to me in another a strong way. And then the second the third verse goes into the second greatest command. And when my love for man grows weak, and man, that's uh that's one that really gets me. Well, you know, I'm you know we we talk about on Sundays what what everybody's got comes in with their struggles, what are they struggling with? Typically, mine involves the second command. I'm struggling with a neighbor somehow. And you know, when my love for man grows weak, when for deep either deeper or stronger faith I see. And and then the it points to the Garden of Gethsemane, which we've talked about past episodes. You know, see see that suffering, friendless wine weeping, praying there alone. It's just beautiful. And then the last verse is into life I turn again, learning all the worth of pain, learning all the might that lies in a true self-sacrifice. It's just beautiful imagery, beautiful words, and even I think there's a lot to say about the tune and melody to some of these songs that really make it pop. Anyway, enough about me. What's your favorite?

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Mine is because he lives. So I have I struggle with fear and anxiety and all the things, and just remembering because he lives, I can face tomorrow. Because he lives, all fear is gone. Because I know he holds the future. Life is worth the living because he lives.

SPEAKER_05 8:21

Just because he lives.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Just because he lives.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

That's a great one. I love that. I uh I don't know, I already spent too much time. It is well with my soul. I know I mentioned it. It's man, those last two verses are so powerful in different ways. The thought of you know, the the imagery of yeah, anyway. I can't I can't think of the words verbatim off the top of my head, but so great, so hard to get through sometimes. I I stopped.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

I love when we get to sing hymns at church.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Yeah, yeah, and that's one thing that I think is really you know unique about specifically about our tradition, Church of Christ tradition, that we sing a cappella, and it's an interesting way to worship, and I think there's something powerful just about being able to hear each other's voices. I love that about our church specifically, and there's a lot of ways to experience God, and I think music is such a powerful one, so I love this icebreaker, I think it's great.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

I like I said, we've I think we could do a whole episode to what you're talking about with the singing and and the music and worship and and that aspect, but going just through hymns. I think we uh we're about to spend a whole episode on it right now, but but it's yeah, wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

So what is what is the the topic tonight? Is is your not actually hymns?

SPEAKER_02 9:51

No, it's it's faith pistus for those Greek enjoyers, oh enthusiasts, or in Greek, I'm just gonna know the Greek parenthesis. Faith, this is one that is gonna be near, that's been near and dear to me here recently, especially, and I'm gonna try so hard to control myself. That's why we're just gonna go into this planning multiple episodes. And like I said, may not be consecutive because that the last episode we are gonna have to probably revisit. But anyway, I think to start us off on like Taylor said, our episode, what is faith? What does it mean when we say faith? Faith and in sticker time again.

SPEAKER_04 10:38

It's okay. When we think about those words that you hear a lot in church grace, hope, love, worship.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

You know, you can take for granted what they actually mean. Hallelujah's one. I don't know why. It's so hard for me to remember what hallelujah means when we sing it, and I have to stop myself like, what am I singing? Am I worshiping if I don't know what I'm saying? But anyway, praise be to God. Yeah. No, yeah, I had to I don't know why I have to keep going back to look it up. I can't ever remember that off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

But according to one of your daughters' songs, it's yiffy Yahoo, way to go, God. That's that's what it means.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

That one's got the techno music in it too. That one really hits hard a lot harder than it should. But but and that's another, I keep saying planning all these episodes. I that you know, I want to talk about those those words we take for granted. But anyway, to get us going and focused, get me focused on faith. I want to share a quote from John Mark Comer, Practice in the Wave, great book. He puts it this way in general. Who are you following? The deeper question here is in whom are you trusting? Who or what do you put your faith in to show you the way to the life you desire? It's my own under it's my it's my conviction that contrary to what we hear, living by faith isn't a Christian thing or even a religious thing. It's a human thing. We all live by faith. The question the question isn't am I going to believe? It's who or what am I going to believe in? Meaning, who or what I who or what am I going to entrust my life to? Do I really want to trust myself or any other human for that matter?

SPEAKER_04 12:36

I know that got a little wordy, lengthy, but I think it paints a good picture of to get us started of you know considering what is faith. I think it's it's I really loved that quote's emphasis on trust.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

I think that perhaps it's it's almost like a good way to frame the question of what is faith by thinking about what faith is not. And I think in our culture we often think that the opposite of faith is doubt. Or at least it's it's maybe sometimes, in my opinion, a misconception to think about it that way. But when we think of what is the antithesis of faith, the easy answer, the quick answer, might be, oh, it's doubting. But in reality, when I think of faith and what its opposite is, I think that the the opposite of faith is a lack of trust. And as like a jumping off point for this conversation, and I I thought that that quote highlighting who are you or what are you trusting in as the central sort of pillar in this discussion, I think is a good a good starting place.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

And as we broach the topic of faith in this episode ultimately, there's a there's these key words that keep coming up, trust and trust key aspects of what faith is. And Hebrews 11, I think we all agree is or not just 11, Hebrews itself is a big book. In regards to what is faith, Hebrews has probably some of the best uh explanations, and there's other words that are gonna come up that we'll we'll talk about here in a minute, like trust that are so pivotal to understanding faith. And I think that's the key to understanding some of these terms, right? Breaking it down into you know definitions, looking at other translations, how is it how is it you know being conveyed in other translations in other ways really helps to perceive what it's conveying. Pistis in Greek, by the way, we'll get that out of the way. Pistis is the noun. Typically, you see uh pistio, and I know I'm probably butchering some of the pronunciations, is the verb, so believe also walks hand in hand with that.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

One of my favorite definitions of faith comes from a very theological source, miracle on 34th Street.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Oh boy. Which translation?

SPEAKER_00 15:20

It was it was the first one, the original one, the good one. Um but it's faith is believing when common sense tells you not to.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

So I love that. Yeah, I would add to that. I wrote down faith is number one, believing, two, trusting, which we also talked about, and then three, living it out. And yeah, and I think that the first part, the believing part, that it that like that initial faith, it's led by the Holy Spirit, and it's not something that we can like squeeze our fist and try really hard and accomplish. It's something that he, the Holy Spirit, helps us to have. And then just some scripture that I wrote out to think more about what faith is in 2 Corinthians 5 7. It says, We walk by faith, not by sight, which goes to your miracle on 31st Street. Is that 31st or 34th? 34. But yeah, that that quote. And I also wrote faith by itself, which is kind of goes into a different topic on faith, but faith by itself, it is not accomplished by action. If it is not accomplished by action, it is dead, which is James 2, 17, which is just like a call to be intentional with how we live, and it gets into that faith versus works conversation that us four have had in a Romans class before. But yeah, I'll just leave it there and then maybe you can hear some of your feedback.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Yeah, I mean, you're um I'm trying to adjust my my thoughts on it because you've already hit a lot of them. And as I've kind of mentioned before, yeah, I've been doing a lot of writing, uh, especially in regards to faith, and but there's so much there, and I want to try to the one of the hardest things I've found is when you're trying to explain faith, you're trying to write it out of what it is, trying to find a a a basically a synergy, a stream, uh a clear stream if you're trying to look at where all it shows up, what all is said about faith. You hit some big ones. The first one you hit too, that faith we walk by faith, not by sight, is a big one. Because if I'm thinking of what is faith, to me it starts with a Hebrew Hebrews 11 1. It's the clearest direct answer to that question in scripture.

SPEAKER_04 18:06

And I do so in my research of faith and my study of it, yeah, I've kind of I've come up with I've brought it up before.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Uh that's a chart that and by the way, our our website, small group podcasts dot wordpress W-O-R-D-P-R-E-S-S.com. You can find everything there, episodes, whatever. But I'm gonna we're we're gonna include some notes as well. I'll include this chart that I've I've come up with. Hebrews 11 1, first off. You know, it's translated multiple ways. When you look through all the translations, one word stays the same. Faith. It's translated as faith across the board, across all translations. What changes is it's uh the translation of its definition. Faith is uh growing up we memorized it as faith is the evidence of things hoped for.

SPEAKER_04 19:08

Evidence of hope the evidence. Faith is the evidence of things hoped for the evidence of evidence of proof.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

No, substance. Well, proof is one too, but substance uh that's how I remember memorize it, substance of things not seen. So there's like four key things there.

SPEAKER_04 19:25

Evidence of hope, those two, plus the the substance of the unseen.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Unseen's a key part of this of faith, of pistis, understanding what it is. Like you just brought up we walk by faith, not by sight. That comes up so many times, not as directly as it's stated here, but subtly. When you go back and with that in mind and you look at what Jesus talks about when he talks about faith, when he mentions pistis, typically when he does, it's regarding a miracle. You know, because of your faith, you are healed, or you know, that's the majority of the time whenever he mentions it, it's in that context. When but when he mentions it in the context of a lesson, you see that more and more of the this idea of the non-visible, the unseen. The chart that I have, I so I boiled that down to kind of like a this is my my formula for faith. Faith equals my favorite translation is assurance of hope plus conviction of unseen. And there's I've got it all laid out, all the different translations. Like and I I usually have people pick what's their favorite word for faith is is it the assurance of hope, confidence of hope, substance of hope, so on, or plus conviction of the unseen, the knowing of the unseen, evidence of the unseen. But the point is most people, I don't think everybody's ever two people have ever chosen the same thing. Usually it's a different word here and different because they have different meanings. Like assurance mean and conviction mean something different to me than maybe w y'all. And we could even go around the table. I think each person would pick something different. And it's a fascinating thing. I'll put that on the website for anybody that wants to take a take a look.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

But anyway, that's uh that's the gist of it, uh if you want to look at faith.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

Yeah, you know, I think to get into the the Greek a little bit, and you are bringing up I mean, there's so much to address here. You're bringing up the the various translations of this verse, Hebrews chapter eleven, verse one, and the central definition of of faith, how we understand it.

SPEAKER_04 21:56

I I

SPEAKER_03 22:00

I think the the the whole verse hinges on this Greek word hypo hypostasis hypostasis. And to me I think that all of these translations we've talked a little bit about this in previous episodes.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Real quick, uh the word that you're referring to, the hypostasis is the hypostasis of hope. That first one, right? Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Yeah, exactly. It is so basically faith is the hypostasis of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. So faith is the what is this hypostasis then? That's kind of in my mind the key question to answer. How do you define that word? Literally in Greek, I think it breaks down to that which stands uh underneath. So hoopo, hoopo or hypo is like underneath, and the stasis is is the root of standing. So basically it is I almost think that the best way I think the best way to understand it is like it is the underlying in my mind the underlying foundational reality for everything. So that's right.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

That's a new translation I have to add to it.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Yeah, it's it's like the found it's and that's combining a few of the words that you have suggested for how to define this hypostasis.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

By the way, this is from all the translations.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

These aren't mine.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

These are just taken from all the translations, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

Yeah, and I think I think it gets to the point that we've talked about before that language there's always a certain inadequacy of language. I know this is Ben loves this, but I I see it as being so much richer than than than a single concept. But in my mind, it em it implies something that's concrete and real and that it has this ontological dimension, meaning that it is it is the foundation through which being and experience is had. Faith is something real and something that participates in reality itself. And that when we walk in faith and act in faith, when we have faith in God, we are in this ontological process, this participatory shaping of our being at its core. We are being shaped, and that gets to being conformed to the image of Christ, which is ultimately what faith enables us to do. It enables us to be sanctified and ultimately to achieve the coming glorification that awaits us in the life after this life. And so, yeah, I see it as being maybe that hypostasis word as being a foundational reality, which is kind of cheating because that takes oh okay. Yeah, I'm sorry. No worries. Yeah, that takes two words that you've pulled out of translations and combines them. So maybe that's yeah, no.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

I am I th it's fascinating that you you focus on the hypostasis, the and some of the translations kind of corresponding with what you're talking about, you know, the essence, the substance of hope. And I know I'm I'm really whittling that verse down to its most essential and trying to just describe it in in few terms, but what we what I think we'll we'll see, and I don't know what everybody else has prepared to bring to the table, but I think one of my predictions is a lot of what we bring up, and I've already brought up revolve around those two notions the substance, the assurance, the confidence of hope, or the conviction, the knowing, the evidence of the unseen, the non-visible. And just to in contrast, and I mentioned it just a while ago, two two verses I want to bring up or bring in at this point is what Jesus says in John about and I know I'm probably gonna jump around from verse to verse without full context. I'm sorry, I I was trying to keep it shorter, but John 20 verse 29. The verses leading up to that, he he mentions belief and the pistos, pisto, pisteo, the uh terms about Thomas, doubting Thomas. And so in verse 27, then he said to Thomas, Jesus said to Thomas, reach a finger with with your here with your hand. I'm reading off the bear with me, I'm reading off the interlinear. I didn't get it. With your basically reaching and touch the side of me, you know, Thomas is doubting. He's like, I won't I won't believe until I see.

SPEAKER_04 27:03

So that goes to the visible. And then Jesus says this to him to sum it up because you have seen me, you have believed.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Blessed are those having not seen yet have believed. And real quick, another verse. I I'm trying to bring more scripture into our conversations here. First Peter First Peter chapter one, verse eight and nine speaks to that visible nature as well. And and though you have not seen him, Peter's writing, you you love him. And though you do not see him now, but believe in him, you greatly rejoice and joy with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. And those that's just a beautiful thought. And I love the first, second Peter. I'm I have a soft spot for those two, just because how they're written, they're written very broadly and open to a wide audience, you know, where Paul Paul's typically focused on Romans or the Galatians or so on. Peter's is wide open to everyone, and it's it feels more like he is speaking directly to us in in many ways.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

So right now I am reading fervent by Priscilla. Is it Shira? Shira Share.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

I know. I'm waiting for you to figure it out on your own. Anyway, that's one of your books too.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

I don't uh Yes, I love it. But uh she said faith is the application of what one believes, the process of putting faith to our beliefs and living in light of it in practical terms. So, Taylor, I loved what you said about it's participatory, it's not you can't let like you were saying, Sabrina, you can't just sit back and hope that your faith grows. That that's not how that works. And and even one of my favorite scriptures is oh my goodness, I'm totally blanking on the story. But when the man says, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. I love that verse, and so it's like when when I know that my faith is small, it's like Lord, increase my faith. And because I mean he says if we have faith the size of a mustard seed, and so if I know that my faith is smaller than that, like just hey, increase that, please.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Yeah, that's that's the scripture that I wrote down as well. And I when I was researching, I guess, like what is faith preparing for this episode. I was listening to some of what Taylor was saying, and one thing that came to mind on a personal level is when Taylor and I came back to our faith, he came back first, and it took me a little bit longer. And I remember feeling very alone and isolated in that experience. And so I started thinking about people who are trying, but like that faith that the Holy Spirit hasn't maybe led them there yet, or maybe they haven't opened the door themselves to God knocking. And I want to make sure that you know, like we're addressing that because that's a really lonely place to be. And so, well, one I wrote down to your point, Lacey, the the if you have faith as small as a mustard seed mustard seed, that's so important to remember because it doesn't have to be this like grand thing. Like I remember struggling with my own faith and seeing people be kind of dramatically led by the Holy Spirit in tears and thinking, like, when is the Holy Spirit gonna do that for me? Like I want that. And I think that like some things that helped me that I wrote down were just like this realization that, well, one, yes, faith is led by the Holy Spirit. Two, um, faith is strengthened by baptism, communion, community with one another, fasting, service, prayer, worship, reading scripture. And I truly believe what God says that you ask, you will receive. And I like especially think that's true when we're talking about faith.

SPEAKER_05 31:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

And so I wanted to put those reminders because I think it's important. And then one thing that when I was that helped me when I was struggling with my faith, specifically with prayer, because if you your heart's not there, your heart's not softened, it feels often feels like a lot of effort to pray. And I remember one close friend saying, you know, there's a lot of examples of prayer in the Bible. And I talk about Psalms a lot. I brought it up in our last episode, but I remember them pointing to Psalms and just like reading Psalms, those are prayers from often David. That like if you can't pray your own prayer, God has laid out prayers in scripture that I truly believe that if you're reading them, it helps build faith. And another, I guess, example of turning to scripture when you feel like you're struggling with your own faith. There are some biblical heroes where we can go back and read their story and see how they have had faith in really hard moments. Um, so some examples I wrote down are Abraham. I mean, trusting God's promises. Lacey and I are working with the children's ministry, and we just got, I think probably a few weeks ago, we talked about Abraham in one of our lessons, and how, you know, Abraham and Sarah, they both struggled with having children until old age, and God promised Abraham that he that he they would have children. He's like, how can that be? And so I think like the his faith was so powerful, and God honored that in such a big way by making his descendants outnumber the stars, which is so beautiful. And then another person, Moses stepping out in obedience, led by faith, and Noah building the ark before rain ever came, um, is another example of faith. So I think that like the Bible is truth. It is like so important whenever whether we are Christians or we're not, and we're wherever we're at with faith, I think it's like important to go back to scripture and it helps us in that way.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Sabrina, thank you. Thank you for sharing. And I just I love you and I love your heart and I love your story. I just want to add on two quick things. One, if you are struggling in your faith right now, if you are struggling to pray, find someone to stand in the gap for you. I went through a season where I I found I couldn't pray. I I just couldn't. But I I went to a couple of friends and I said, I can't pray right now. I need you to pray for me. And they did that. They stood in that gap for me. And so that is very, that's very special and that's so important. So if you need someone to stand in that gap, please reach out to us. And also, I love your example of Abraham and Sarah, but one thing that I love in Hebrews 11, verse 11, it says, by faith, Sarah herself received strength to conceive seed. And she bore a child when she was past the age because she judged him faithful, who had promised. She was able to be faithful because she knew that God was faithful, and that's where it all starts. So we know we know that God is faithful. We know that God is faithful so we can be faithful to him, we can follow his example. So I love that.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

I love that edition. And I meant to like say this because this all that conversation started based off of Matthew 17, 20. If you have faith as small as the mustard seed, and um, I just wanted to remind everyone all everything that I just said, it was leading to even small, quote unquote, small faith matters greatly. It's a reminder that we do not need to be perfect in faith, and in fact, we are definitely gonna stumble and we're gonna struggle, but we just need to be intentional about the process and not focus on perfection.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

To that point, too. And I'll echo Lacey. Thank you. Uh I think that was wonderful. Uh especially opening up like that. But Matthew 17, to your point, and to your point uh, Lacey about prayer, this this is very pivotal. What you just read, Matthew 17, 20, you know, Jesus tells them if you have faith as as a seed a mustard seed, you'll say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you. Faith of a mustard seed. And then so that sentiment is echoed in different ways through Mark and Luke, those those two gospels too. Mark 11 23, truly I say to you, whoever shall say to this to this mountain, be you taken away, and be you cast into the the sea, and not shall doubt, and and shall not doubt in your heart. So have faith and not doubt in your heart, but shall believe that what he says takes place, it will it will be done for him. And then Luke has a little bit different. Then the Lord then the Lord said, if you have faith like a grain of mustard, you will say to this uh mulberry tree, be uprooted and be planted in the uh in the sea, and it would have obeyed you. And I think there are different circumstances surrounding each one of those quotes. I don't think they're the three gospels are conflicting with one another. I think so he's saying that I I believe from what I can tell, he's saying this at multiple times. He's saying this repeatedly. It all culminates with going back to Matthew, Matthew 21, 22. And all things, as many, as many as you might ask in prayer, going to Lacey's point, believing you will receive. He says it so directly and bluntly. And this is one thing that I've really tried to dive into is this he's saying if if you have faith, ask in confidence. That faith builds that conviction up, that confidence up to I know God will do this. Something like moving a mountain from here to the sea, something so just ultimately miraculous. That's such a I hate to say a strange concept for me. You know, and when we took talking about prayer in particular, it's those verses have been so convicting to me to to reanalyze the whole idea of expectation and confidence.

SPEAKER_04 38:44

I struggle with walking that line of both of you know you know, asking or praying in with an expectation.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

I've I've kind of you know cut myself down so much where and I agree with the sentiment that you know he doesn't give us what we want, he gives us what we need. I agree with that. I think it can go too far. And I'm speaking from a personal standpoint that I take that so far that I it starts to whittle my confidence down that he will at all. Yeah, you can go too far with that. And so it's like he's he's telling us faith that you take confidence, it will be done if you ask in faith, if you believe. I know you can take that uh the other way too far, where it's like, well, he's not giving me what I want because I I don't have enough faith or I lack faith, and that can be just as bad as coming from a place of uh low expectations, you know. But I think that's very important. You know, it's trying to come from that place and be more confident. One thing that I don't know if we'll get too deep into this in this episode, faith. When you go to the Roman letter, Paul writing to the Romans, that that whole letter really, if I had to title it, it's righteousness and faith. And when you think about righteousness, we're not righteous, God's righteous. It's not something I can attain to necessarily. I'm it's like godliness. I when I studying godliness, godliness is it's it's almost one of those things you obtain it by not obtaining it. Yeah, you're I'm not here to be righteous or be godly so much as I am here to point to God's righteousness. And in doing that, I become more righteous, more godly. Like like you know, when Paul or Peter in Acts, when uh he heals a blind man, I believe it's a blind man or maybe a lame man at the temple, a crowd comes around him, and the first things he's he points to is God's godliness. I didn't do this, this isn't by me. And so when you approach your faith from that type of humility, your prayers also change a little bit. So it's not it's not necessarily about asking in confidence for things I want or expect. It's asking for God, use me. Help me be more effective and and pointing to you.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Yeah, your will be done.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Yeah, absolutely. That's the best way to put it. Did you just come up with that?

SPEAKER_04 41:30

It reminds me, it reminds me of a verse in Philippians in chapter three, beginning in verse eight.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered for the loss of all things, and count them mere rubbish, so that I may gain Christ and may be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith. What chapter was that? That's Philippians three, verses eight and nine.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

I was gonna say it first three verse nine. I thought you said chapter eight. I was like, verse I didn't realize this. Three verse nine says the exact same thing, but okay, that's what you're reading. Yeah, it goes back to that righteousness. Yeah, yeah, you're thinking of Romans three, probably. No, no, I was reading Philippians 2. Oh, Philippians 3. Okay. I thought you I thought you were in chapter 8, and I was like, wow, he just repeated himself, but no, you're good. You're good.

SPEAKER_03 42:46

Philippians only has four chapters, so I'd be adding chapters to the fact-checking you, I was just getting up in the moment. But I I think that verse, I mean, really, that puts it in perspective for me, where like you were saying, Ben, that the right any amount of righteousness we have, I mean, it only comes through Christ and his sacrifice and the and the the righteousness that God s like that God has is without that sacrifice, without Christ's work on the cross and it's his resurrection showing us victory over death, that he holds the keys to death. And it's through that that we have any amount of righteousness before God. He's so holy and perfect. On our own, we could never attain it. And it's just a beautiful thing to think that the cross is at the center of all of it of our journey and and and then being transformed into the image of Christ by faith, that when we walk by faith and live by faith we inevitably grow closer and closer to Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 43:58

At one point

SPEAKER_02 44:00

I only know this because I've gone through I tried to go through every mention of Pistus, every mention of Pistio and all of that. But now they're all blended together, and I can't remember which verse it is. But there's one verse where it does talk about faith, uh, calls faith a gift. Faith is a gift. Maybe it's Ephesians 2.8. Faith. I know it says it there, but uh so you're we're saved by grace through faith, not on anything we've done, but as a gift, faith as a gift from God.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

That's such that no one can boast.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Because we think, at least me on the surface, I think faith is something that I need to obtain or aspire to or work on, or and I think there is something to that. There's standing firm in faith. There's you know, I think there's there's a little bit of that as far as you know, refining your faith, stuff like that, testing your faith. But faith is a gift. There's a line, I think I mentioned it before in a song, is I know not why God's wondrous grace to me he hath made known, nor why unworthy Christ in love redeemed me as his home. I've had that thought so many times. Like, why did he make it so easy for me? Somebody who my parents exposed, like took us to church from day one. We, you know, my dad was both my parents, my mom and dad, were both very influential in church, out of church, as far as teaching us about God. It's my whole uh journey to finding God, finding faith is literally a gift. It's been spoon-fed to me without any effort on my own. And and you know, and I and I compare that to people who I see who struggle with that, who haven't had that same type of gift in the way that I have. You know, I'm not like comparing myself to others and thinking myself better. I'm just thankful that he has made it easy because if he didn't, you know, it's like it goes back to that notion of he doesn't give us more than we can, you know, bear. I must not be able to bear much because he made it super easy for me to to get there.

SPEAKER_04 46:12

And I I do going back to where we where we started, basically Hebrews 11:1.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Like I said, faith is mentioned so many times, and like Spring, what you brought up in Lacey, what I think you started reading it. I I was trying to remember if it was, I think it's chapter 14 or 16, or maybe later in chapter 11. I I I've heard it referred to as the Hall of Fame of faith, where it goes through Abraham and Moses and all of them, all those examples of faith. But when I like I said, Hebrews talks about faith so much, I try to wheel it down to where what are the most what I what do I see as the most important mentions of faith? Hebrews 11 1 obviously I think is the one of the most important throughout scripture, but right after that, I think Hebrews 11 3 is extremely important too. By faith, well, I'll just read one through three real quick. Now, faith is the certainty of things hoped for. I'll use a different translation. Uh the certainty of things hoped for, the a proof of things not seen, for by the people of old gained approval. And then verse 3 by faith we understand that the world has been created by the by the word of God. That's Remo, by the way, not logos. Any nerds, listen, been created by the word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible. And then last verse I'll I want to pick from Hebrews here personally is verse six, just a few verses down. And without faith, so going back to kind of what you've been talking about, looking at what what's not what what is faith not? Without faith, it is impossible to please him. Impossible to please him.

SPEAKER_04 48:01

For the one who comes to God must believe that he exists and that he proves to that he proves to be the one who rewards those who seek him.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

And and like I you can see uh or y'all here with me, you can see all the I've marked every time faith appears in in my text, or pistus appears in my text, and it's many times just in this chapter alone. And to me, if I had to whittle it down to those, those are the main three for me of what faith is.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

If you keep going through that chapter, which is amazing, but said, and what more shall I say? For the time would the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jeff, also of David and Samuel and the prophets, who through faith, this is the part that I want to read, subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead race to life again. I know it's amazing. It just keeps going.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

So this is the chapter, thank you. This is the chapter of the uh quote unquote hall of fame of faith, which I kind of like that title, by the way. I'm digging it. I I love how that chapter ends. It goes through all of those people. Then you go to verse 39, 11, chap uh Hebrews 11, 39, and all these, all these people you just mentioned, having gained approval through their faith, through their faith, did not receive what was promised. Because God had provided something better for us, yeah, so that apart from us, they would not be made perfect.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Yeah, that's me.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

Mic drop, we're done. What else is there to say?

SPEAKER_00 50:16

All right, good night, folks.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

I I real I'm sorry, real quick. I I think it was the first episode we were talking about, you know, our favorite was our favorite verses. And then, you know, and I'm so thankful I did this. I know I've mentioned it before, you know, I don't when we were getting married, I sent I got a family Bible, sent it around to all the family members how to mark their their verses, and then I was so grateful I did that my last grandparent, my grandfather to pass away, my dad's dad, he I was able to get his favorite verse. And I wish I could go back and get all of them. I wish I would have done this so much sooner. But I took those that are in our family Bible, our do not touch Bible almost. I d I'm being facetious there, but and I put them in my personal Bible that I I use daily. I just ended chapter 11. Guess what opens chapter 12? Ma Pawpa. Chapter 12. Oh, I'm not even gonna be able to read this. You're gonna have to read that. It's marked in green.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

Therefore, since we also have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let's rid ourselves of every obstacle and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking only to Jesus, the originator and perfecter of the faith, who for the joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

SPEAKER_04 51:51

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 51:53

That's my yeah, I I I wasn't planning to bring that up. It just happened to it shows up, it just showed up there as we're reading through the scripture. And so I again I would say do that now. All of your family that's alive and with us. I I would give anything to go back and and just to know those. What are your favorite? What's your favorite verse? It's something to think about yourself. What's your favorite verse? But to be able to know, I know what my wife's favorite Bible verse is because I think they're very telling of who they are. Yeah. And the fact that that that verse is my papa's favorite verse, and knowing him so personally myself, even knowing him personally myself for so many years, knowing his favorite verse just tells me so much more about him.

unknown 52:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

But uh, and I I'm so grateful for that. So yeah, I'd encourage everybody to do that because it's just beautiful when you're go you're reading through, you're doing a Bible study, and boom, there's Pawpaw. Boom, there's Lacey.

SPEAKER_04 52:54

And but anyway. Are we uh sick of Hebrews yet?

SPEAKER_03 53:00

I actually had another Hebrews reference since we're hitting it hard tonight. And this touches on a uh on a point that you raised earlier, Ben, struggling at times with confidence. And there's this passage earlier in the book of Hebrews, chapter 4, which talks about how Christ, as our great high priest, who laid down his life after living a sinless life on our behalf that we might have a chance of eternity with him. This is Hebrews chapter 4, starting in verse 14. Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let's hold firmly to our confession.

SPEAKER_04 53:55

For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin.

SPEAKER_03 54:09

Therefore, let's approach the throne of grace with confidence so that we may receive mercy and find grace for help at the time of our need. And I guess that was just that's a point of emphasis I'd like to make too, which is that for those who place their hope in Christ, who recognize that He is God's Son, that He loved us and died for us, that He was raised again, that He shows us through His resurrection that we have no need to fear death or to live in fear, but that we are made free, and it is for freedom that we are free. I would just encourage you, Ben, and anyone who's listening to who really hears that verse just to feel to feel very deeply that we can approach the throne of God with confidence, which is just an amazing thing. You know, I often feel wow, I'm so unworthy. Even at times, even to pray to God. I feel a sense of unworthiness. Man, that's so true. And and that's not from Him. He doesn't want us to sit in anxiety, He wants us to just lay it at the feet. Yeah, lay it on Him. And so I loved that also that passage in Hebrews 4 there. And I thought it spoke to finding confidence in approaching the throne.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

And I I'm so glad you brought us back to that. Because going off what you're talking about and what we were just talking about with the faith of a mustard seed, the confidence expectation part. You know, I read from Jesus referring to it, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Then James follows up with very similar, very similar statements. James, James 1, 6, but he must ask in faith without any doubting. For the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that person ought not to expect, ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways, and that's exactly how I feel right now. Unstable sometimes. I mean, I I I still have confidence in God, but there's still in my daily, day-to-day journey, there's some still an instability, some stuff I'm still working out. And I think we all are. By the way, I hate coming in in the middle of a sentence on scripture. I usually try to back up. James is a little easier to do, but like Paul and his run-on sentences is a very difficult. So forgive me, I'm doing it right now for the sake of time. I know I'm jumping around, but James 5.15 and the prayer of faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. So there's like that confidence that he will he will restore you, he will heal you. And and it goes back to, like I said earlier, that sentiment of Yeah. Thanks, Gabby. That sentiment of he gives us what he he answers our prayer, he answers what we need, not necessarily what we want, but when you get into righteousness and you dig deeper into that and faith, you start to it starts to shape what you reshape your your own stance on what it is you need, what it is you want. It becomes less selfless, less about you. It's not he's going to heal me one way or another. He's gonna heal me, he's gonna raise me up. And like we talk about Hebrews, how Hebrews 11 ends, those people didn't they didn't see the promise, but they got something better. And that's faith is that he there's something better than what I'm asking for.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

Yeah, and it's it's a rem to your point, it's a reminder that we don't have to do it perfectly. Like we're we're gonna struggle in the same way David is crying out and is really struggling, but he's still trusting, like he's not doing it perfectly, and he it probably doesn't look elegant, and you know, he's not retreating like Jesus is retreating and praying, you know. And I don't know. I just think that we're going to appear weak while doing it, but that like we're human.

SPEAKER_02 58:51

I just want to say this about David real quick. Poor David. He gets so many caveats. If you notice, every time he's brought up, there's so many caveats, and it's all about how would you like to be remembered for the guy that man, he messed up a lot, but look at his faith. I mean, it's good, but it's like I'd rather people just like, man, look at his face. You know, like poor David.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

But no, I mean, I I I love David because of his Psalms. I love his Psalms, I love his story. Yeah, I think it's helpful for all of us because we're all going to struggle and stumble. And I think Adam Brown actually said this in youth one of a few weeks ago, he said that like this idea of fake it till you make it, and that sounds a little bit harsh, but I've heard someone say before, do with your body what your heart is unable to do right now. And I think that is putting trust, like that's trust, you know, like pray when you don't feel like praying. Read scripture when you don't feel like reading scripture.

SPEAKER_02 59:59

Pray for those people you don't feel like praying for. Exactly. That's been a powerful one for me here lately.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

Yep. There's so many examples of doing the things that like maybe your heart isn't feeling like you want to do. I think it it can lead you to a s and I mean, well, God leads you to a softened heart, but like your prayer, he answers our prayers, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

Well, and going back to Sabrina, how you were talking about Abraham, and I love this story so much, but also to your point, then you know, God promises that his descendants would outnumber the stars and the grains of sand on the beach and all the things. Abraham had two sons, technically two sons, whatever, but let's just say one, and that son had two sons. It wasn't like you know, Abraham got to see, like, oh well, I had 22. Thank you, baby. He didn't have, you know, like 22 children who all had children. No, he only saw the tiniest little snippet of that promise.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:19

And I just think that that's to that point, you know, I can't help but think of the peace that he has. He's being you know, comforted by God that this is gonna happen and and your legacy and your your family, even though he doesn't see it to your point, there's gotta be so much peace, and that's another key word that comes with faith.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:40

Peace of mind, peace of heart feeling, you know, just peace uh that comes with with faith.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:51

Oh yeah, no, I I was reminded in the in the middle of this discussion, especially when you were talking about David and the Psalms of Psalm 63 where David's in this place of wilderness and I feel like we all go through seasons of wilderness, you know, uh wilderness as a concept in the Bible. Like sometimes it's literal, literally out in the desert with the jackals and and all of the wild beasts, the lions. But it can in our modern context we go through wilderness periods where we suffer, we struggle to feel maybe a connection to God, we struggle with our circumstances, and that Psalm 63 to me ties into this whole discussion on faith that where it David is in the wilderness and he he essentially he he starts off, he says he says, God, you are my God. I shall be watching for you. My soul thirsts for you, my flesh yearns for you in a dry and exhausted land where there is no water. Yet I have seen you in your sanctuary to see your power and your glory. Because your loving kindness is better than life, my lips will praise you. So shall I bless you as long as I live, I will lift up my hands in your name. My soul is satisfied as with marrow and fatness. My mouth offers up praise with joyful lips. When I meditate on you in my bed, I remember you, and the night watches. For you have been my help, and in the shadow of your wings I sing for joy. My soul clings to you, and your right hand takes hold of me.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:58

But those who would seek my life to destroy it, they shall be cast into the pit.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:05

They shall be turned over to the power of the sword, they shall be a portion for foxes. The king will rejoice in God, and all those who swear by him will boast. For me, that's just such a powerful example of David's trust in the Lord, where he's in the wilderness, and yet he's looking for God. He is he's watching for him, he knows that God's hand is going to be upon him, he knows that the people who are seeking his life to to destroy him, whether it's literal Saul and his and his armies coming after, literally coming after David, or whether that's us in a moment of wilderness. We are being attacked spiritually. Maybe there are spiritual forces at play that are coming after us in our life. Maybe there are circumstances that are dragging us down. We know and we have hope, and we can approach the throne confidently because of Christ, what he did on the cross. We know that when we put our faith and trust in God, we can rest in security under his wings. We have that, we have that security. I just love that song.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:15

I need a mic drop sound on my board. And for all those that are listening, can't appreciate this, and uh I'm gonna call you out for it because I just I admire it. I it's amazing. He just recited all of that, by the way. He was not reading and struggling to read something like I do. He he was reciting that from memory. That was amazing. Oh, I do have a button. There you go. He decided.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

I really I I don't, you know, I yeah, I I appreciate that. I don't I don't know. I don't know always know what to I don't always know what the path is gonna look like, but I know that he's with me on the path.

unknown 1:05:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:59

And yeah. Yeah, I appreciate what your path looks like. Anytime you need to know, let me know. I'll tell you. Yeah, but I think when we look for God, when we find that that that He is our protector and we put our trust in Him, put our faith in Him. Yeah. Those forces, they're a portion for foxes, man. Like they're not gonna we don't have to be afraid. We don't have to live in fear. And the the the peace that you described is something that I felt surpasses all understanding. Man, I feel it so deeply, and I'm so grateful for it. So what does the fox say?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:35

I need that button right now so bad.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:37

Ring ding ding ding ding.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:40

Is that the Hebrew form of Yeah? I mean, as we're wrapping this up, were you gonna say something? Okay. You know, as we start to wrap up this first of what feels like it's probably gonna be many episodes about faith because we've barely scratched the surface, I feel. I think we've hit a lot of good highlights. I got just a couple of things left that I want to hit before we leave this one.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:06

We I mentioned it earlier, I think we mentioned the last episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:09

That you know, going back to that my that I love those verse that verse that I really cling, those verses I cling to, my default is to uh to love God with all your heart and soul, and then love your neighbor as itself. One thing that I like in my mixed up brain, I like in as you can see from Hebrews 11.1, I like when scripture is direct, direct and to the point. One thing about and then and why those verses are my default, the greatest command, second, is he blatantly says command. This is the greatest command. He even could put a hierarchy to it, which I I really appreciate. This is the greatest command, this is the second. We can and this will come up later episodes. I'm sure a lot of topics are going to be revolved around these debates. Baptism, you you you mentioned it earlier, uh Sabrina, uh faith and baptism. That's something that I I want to dig more into as well. You know, you see debates around baptism. Is it essential? Is it not essential? And I and that's a question especially I want to dive into. But you have all these debates about do we have to do this, do we have to do that? With faith, genuine faith removes that question. It's not about do I have to? What is it for me to do, basically, or what more can I be doing? Am I doing everything? Not out of out of trying to prove or earn, but out of a genuine agape love for God, righteousness, seeking that righteousness. But oh hang on, real quick. I said all that to say this. I love whenever it says blatantly a command, I love that. It clears any doubt of do you have to do not? Faith is a command. One more verse here. I I'll I want to add to this is it uh was first John 323. This is his commandment, God's that we believe in the name of his son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us. And really it's just a rephrasing of the greatest and second command. And I I I love when it just comes out and says it clears any doubt, any debate. It is a command and Greek.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:46

Baptism is also a command of Jesus. It says in Matthew chapter 28, go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to follow all that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always till the end of the age. So at least as a commission to us, we are called to baptize others.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:15

And I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I I agree. I I I do have a a somewhat of a different technique, because really around baptism, it's is it essential, is it not? Is it a command? Is it not? I have a and usually you see people take one side or the other, right? I kind of have a middle ground there that I think might be a little interesting to you, and and we'll get into that in a later episode. But to that point, and again, I'm not disagreeing with you at all with baptism, but with the verse you just read, it doesn't say command, and that's where again I'm not disagreeing with you, but you see where it comes up. I if I I agree that it is commission and it is uh it's directly stated, and I and I do appreciate that. If you could have just dropped in and told a the Greek word for and I'm mispronouncing it, for command, it would clear all this up. We'd be done, there'll be no debate. But you know, every time people are always gonna nitpick and and try to be very particular of did he say this or did he say one thing that we'll get into with baptism is what is your definition of his is. Oh it really is. It comes down to the immortal words of the biblical scholar William Billy Clinton. Oh my god, it all depends on what your definition of is is.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:33

I do think that baptism should be a separate episode, but just to kind of go back to the faith question. And to your point, Ben, like uh it made me think of like a child and their father, like our God is a good father and he is a provider. And that is one, you know, in our last episode we talked about, we talked about God being uh like Jesus being called ref referenced to as brother in scripture, which is a hard one to understand, and God being referenced as friend, which is also one that I've I've had a harder under harder time feeling at times because I feel so unworthy. But provider is one that I've never really struggled with because I think like I have so much and I don't feel I just feel so grateful for our good father who provides. And when you're thinking about a child and their father, you see a child wanting to impress their father so much by drawing pictures or just like doing things that they think that their father will be proud of. And so, in the same way, I think that we all would agree that like those that list that we talked about the the baptism, the reading of scripture, the prayer, like faith kind of answers that, like because we want our father, well, he loves us, like we can't make him love us, but we want in that in the same way that the child wants to impress their father. Like I have that feeling of like my father has given me so much, like I want to be, I want to serve him, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:12

I want that embrace of a father. And on the flip side of that, becoming a father as a as someone who has become a father just in the last few years has really changed so much of my perspective on things. And and I I could go on and on about all of that, and uh, but that's another thing that will really change your you know, we get through all these life events that really help us to I I I like to call it I unlocked a new level or a new achievement as far as understanding agape love or pistos faith. And I'm sorry, it sounds like I'm saying a dirty word when I try to say the Greek in the fa the faith in Greek, but but no, as we're wrapping it up, uh I only have one more thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:57

Did you have something?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:00

Oh no, I would I was just gonna say that I like I liked what you said, Sabrina. I mean ultimately our mentality I think is or should be how can I put a smile on my Lord's face today? You know, I I think it's easy when we think about the way we love each other, we don't want to love in a selfish way. And you know, God does so much for us, what is the the one thing, the one act of obedience, the one act of service towards another, the one act of prayer, or if it is for an individual who's who's called into baptism, a baptism, or what is that what is that act, that thing that you can do in this very moment that would just put a smile on the Lord's face? And I think when we start to when we start to operate with that mentality, not of what can I get from Jesus, yeah, but what can I do that would make the Lord look at me and just be like, wow, that is my child, and I'm so pleased to see the way they're living their life right now. And it just that's I think a um a mentality shift that brings about what you said, it's not an act of compulsion, it's we just desire.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:17

It's a yes, it's a desire to want to be close to him to serve him. Right. Like I've heard some people say, No, I'm sorry, it was just real quick, you know, talk talk about like someone on their deathbed, and they they say they're along the lines of I hope I did enough. And I hear that story from multiple people who have similar stories, and they they they deliver that story as though it's tragic. And they know more of that person than I do, but just the way that that story is presented on its face, they present it as a that's a tragedy because they feel like they have to earn it. But the way they tell the story and the way they quote that person, they don't ever come out and say that. I think it might be a mis, it could be. I'm just putting this possibility out there, a misunderstanding of what that person's saying. Because I don't believe that I earn faith, earn faith, earn grace, earn salvation. It's all a gift. I but I I still connect with that sentiment. I hope I've done enough. I have a limited time on this earth to do the will of my father. And when I say enough, it's not enough to earn. It's just enough to what you're talking about to just serve my father. I hope I did everything. I know there's missed opportunities. I hope I made up for them. Not that I'm gonna earn anything, but just because I had that love of God, that faith, that commitment, that conviction so much. I I don't think that's a tragedy on its face. I think that's a beautiful thing that I I want. You know, I I echo that sentiment.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:54

I think God knows our hearts.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:58

I think it's just a did I use my time wisely?

unknown 1:17:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:04

Yeah. Are you asking me? Because don't I don't want to answer it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:13

Kidding. And I'm in trouble. Uh and I I cut you off. I'm so sorry. Oh no.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:22

Okay. Uh I was just yeah. No, I I I think that yeah, this has just been such a great discussion around faith, and I see to bring it full circle, to try to. We think about faith being the whether it's assurance or whether it's the substance, the reality, the um essence. The essence, the foundation. Assurance was my my number one pick, probably. Yeah, whatever we whatever word we choose to use as a stand-in for hypostasis, for sure, it is the it is the thing which enables us to get up out of bed each morning and live a life in relationship with God and what a beautiful thing that is. So yeah, it's been a great this has been a great discussion. Oh, I I agree. I hate to end it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:16

Jumping off point. Well, we gotta close at some point, but we'll reopen it real soon, I promise. But I do want to, before I get to my final note here, and it's gonna be brief, but uh and I don't want to put anybody on the spot. Like I said, I I made this chart, uh, it'll be it of Hebrews 11:1, describing what you what Taylor was just talking about, the whopastasis of hope, the legos, elecchos of unseen. I I want to take a quick poll if you guys if you've got a chance to look at it, of what you you can take a minute to look at it. I I want to know I want to hear how what pick your favorite translation, and I want to hear your combination of how what which one which words jump out most to you, which ones speak to you the most, and how would you read Hebrews 11:1. And I like I said, I'll put it on our website in our notes. I would love to hear from you guys that are listening. Send us a message, comment on this episode, take a look at it on our website, and let me know. I really want to just take a poll of how everybody looks at that verse. What is faith to you? Pick pick your favorite translation, but whoever wants to jump, I I'm just curious to see what you guys say.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:36

I would say for me when I read it, I would I would say that that word hypostasis. I would say for me, when I think of the list that you put, I think reality is the the closest if I had to single it down to a single, if I had to pare it down to a single word. Because this is the reality of hope. Yeah. I think the reason I would choose that as the translation for hypostasis is that it implies reality is what is, what exists. So I mean that's objective reality. That's tautological, right? That's you know, that's that seems obvious, but but it really it points us to the fact that it is the underlying it is the underlying foundation, substance, reality. It is that without which hope is impossible. And so and so for me, the re it's the it is the the essence. The essence, it's it's what's behind everything that we're experiencing. Foundation. Yeah. It's it's hard to pare it down to a single word, but I think reality for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:50

And I'm just saying, these are just how they of all the translations I can find, this is just how it's it's delivered in those translations, how that verse is delivered. So just so I'm on the record here. My favorite is actually I I actually had the list in order of my most favorite to least favorite of all those translations. So mine is faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen. That's my that would be my pick. So Lacey, Sabrina, what what would y'all pick?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:19

I think that mine is faith is trust of hope because trust is a verb. Nice. Yeah, and so there's this balance, like it is a gift, but we have to be willing to receive it. And so there, you know, although that it it is a gift, that's like that is a whole conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:46

We could have another episode about that, but um like free will versus like how much well I was just thinking about that when he brought up reality, objective reality, or you know, but anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:56

Yeah, but I do think the trust, I think is my favorite for faith is trust of hope, and then probably assurance of unseen.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:09

Interesting. Yeah. So you switched I had assurance of hope, and you've got assurance of unseen.

unknown 1:22:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:15

There's a couple in there. You could have the same w translation for both.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:19

But anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:23

I guess mine is faith is the surety of hope and the certainty of things unseen. So no, I just I I I love security and being sure. I I don't love well this, you know, may or may not be, you know, whatever. And so just just being sure, being certain, being secure in that faith and in that hope.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:00

That's but that no, that's great. And but that speaks exactly to where like you said, full circle where we opened up, we each picked something different.

unknown 1:23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:10

Describing faith. And I think that's there's value, and I I I'm thankful, I'm thankful for the technology we have today that I can go and look up in just a few seconds the Greek, the original Greek words, and in the same time find out what what is the definition of them, and at the same time find out all of the translations. You look at the definition, then you look at the translations, how they're described by different very versions of the Bible. And and and I would encourage everyone to kind of at least in some way entertain different variations just because it will unlock a different understanding of some concepts like faith. As we close, I I do want to there's a quote I want to hit, it's one of my favorites. It goes back, harkens back to the last episode where he talked about Einstein. This might help in Taylor's mind clear up some uh concerns he might have from that one quote I had from Einstein. Oh, yeah, I remember might help you feel a little better. Maybe he's got a lot of quotes out there, but in that same interview that he was being asked, do you believe in God?

SPEAKER_04 1:24:14

He's asked by this reporter, do you accept?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:20

He asks him, Do you accept the historical existence of Jesus? And this is what Einstein says, and uh, he doesn't name faith directly, and that's a lot of the verses, a lot of stuff we talk about is just when the scriptures talk about pestis faith directly, mentions it directly. To your point about baptism and the commission, you know, it infers a command. Go exactly. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, there is a command. I'm just saying ways of looking at it. Yes, there is a command there, but you could also say that it's in that's inferring a command. There's a lot in throughout scripture that infers and adds context to faith, but you get what I'm saying. But anyway, this is what Einstein says. Unquestionably, no one can read the gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus, his personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. And that's the short version. He goes on to talk about certain myths and like you know, Greek names I can't pronounce. And it's like you just don't get the same feeling when you read the Odyssey and and how well Lacey does, but when you read those those ancient myths, you just Yeah, yeah, they're entertaining, but they don't they don't connect to you the same way, they don't convict you the same way that Jesus does through scripture.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:45

You clearly read the Odyssey wrong.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:49

You told me not to. I was gonna read it, but it's like don't don't bother.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:54

I think it was the Odyssey, maybe it was something else.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:56

I said the Iliad. Don't don't read the Iliad.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:59

I'm gonna watch the Christopher Nolan version.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:02

Alright, sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:04

No, the only thing I was gonna say, which I was we could just do this all night, but the the quote you mentioned, Ben, especially referencing mythology, reminded me of C.S. Lewis's conversion to Christianity, where through a number of conversations that he, especially with Tolkien, he came to the realization, because they you know they were both really deep into studying myth, studying other languages, they were philologists and people who really cared deeply about the study of different cultures and the stories that those cultures would tell. He came to realize that the beauty of Christianity is that it's about Jesus and that he was a real person. Right? Like shocker, but like It's so simple. It's so it's so beautiful that like all these in all these cultures, there are these myths, and we have our own myths in Western culture and their myths worldwide that tell these beautiful stories. The beauty of Jesus is that he was nailed to a cross and that he was victorious over death and his resurrection, and that that is that it is real, that Thomas put his hands in those wounds, that that man who was God in the flesh did it for us. I mean, that it's it's almost like to say it's a myth, it it's a myth that supersedes all myths. It is the myth of myths, if you will, but it's not a myth because it's real. That's what's crazy. I get what you're saying, but you know what I mean. That it's not a myth, and that's what makes it beautiful, but it has this component of being the greatest story ever told. And that just uh it's so powerful. So yeah.

unknown 1:27:58

Man.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:00

Have to end it. We gotta we gotta end it. We'll be coming right back to it. And I just will say thank you guys so much for doing this and nerding out with us. It's so great to have the conversations like this. You know, that feel meaningful. And so I want to say thank you to you guys. Thank you to the listeners, especially. We it is getting out there. All of our friend all of our fans of Virginia and Iowa and Oregon. I mean, it's amazing how quickly this the show has spread, and we're we're so appreciative of that. And we definitely want to hear from you guys. Please send us a message, comment on the the episode. Any ideas, questions, comments send us an email, goat.bear.lobster at gmail.com. Visit our website, small group podcast, dot wordpress.com on our notes, on our merch. We got shirts and coffee mugs. And and please like, share, subscribe, send uh send us to someone that you know. And uh we really appreciate it. Thank you guys so much. Thank you, Taylor Sabrina. Thank you, wife. And uh love you guys, and we'll see you on our next small group podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:18

Yeah, we love you. Thanks for having us as always.